#95. Redefining God: Love Over Fear

In this conversation, George Angel Ramirez and Mario Bustamante share their stories of personal growth, resilience, and the importance of finding purpose in life. They discusses his upcoming firefighter journey, the challenges he faced in building confidence, and the significance of mindset and perspective in overcoming obstacles. The conversation emphasizes the value of gratitude, fulfillment, and spiritual growth as essential components of a meaningful life. In this conversation, George and Mario explore the themes of spirituality, personal journeys in faith, and the nature of God. They reflect on the experiences with organized religion, the feeling of loneliness within church communities, and their evolving understanding of divine love. The discussion critiques traditional views of God and hell, emphasizing a more personal and loving relationship with the divine. Ultimately, the conversation highlights the importance of finding a welcoming community that embraces diverse beliefs and fosters spiritual growth.


Takeaways

• Life can get busy, but it's important to stay focused.
• Preparing for challenges can build confidence.
• Confidence is key to overcoming obstacles.
• Finding purpose in work can lead to fulfillment.
• Life lessons shape our journey and perspective.
• Mindset plays a crucial role in success.
• Gratitude helps us see the beauty in life.
• Fulfillment is more important than fleeting happiness.
• Spiritual growth can enhance personal well-being.
• Embracing discomfort can lead to personal growth. We all have a connection to the divine.
• Spiritual growth requires effort and practice.
• Feeling lonely in a crowd is a common experience.
• Identifying as a human being transcends religious labels.
• God is fundamentally love, beyond human understanding.
• The concept of hell is not universally accepted.
• The human ego can be seen as the source of evil.
• Fear should not be a basis for our relationship with God.
• Life is about love, acceptance, and making mistakes.
• Finding a community that accepts diverse beliefs is essential.

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Transcript

George Angel Ramirez (00:00.91)
Alright, another day, another episode. We're live. Here we are. Here we are again, man. I know it's been, what was it, a week, two weeks? Yeah, a couple weeks. Yeah, a nice little break. I think we were saying that before, a nice little break for you and me. Last week, know, just little misunderstanding. It's all good, man. Yeah. It happens, We haven't even seen each other in a little bit either, too. Yeah, I know, I was gonna say. I was like, well, here we are. I'm excited.

Yeah, life has it's been busy for me, I'm assuming the same thing for you. Sometimes just, you know, life, life gets, you know, gets in the way. It gets, you know, you start to do some stuff and whatever it might be. And here we are, man. Yep. It's October 12th. No dude, the time is going by, it's going by quick. Yeah. And it's funny because, you know, going through this firefighter process,

Essentially one of the final steps is for me for next week coming up so quickly and it's funny that

I wanted it to be, you know, just going by quick and it has been, and now I'm like, shoot, you know, this is, this is coming, this is coming by what six days from now, six, seven, yeah, six days from now. So now I got to mentally prepare and just kind of prepare the interview and whatnot. Kind of do some mock interviews and you know, man, it just, we'll see, we'll see exactly what happens. Yeah. And I, and I appreciate that, man. And you know what, man, I have that confidence in myself.

I think I got it too. I was telling one of my friends it's not to be cocky, it's not to be any of that. I think I found part of my calling in life. think this is partly what I'm supposed to do. I know it's a great adventure coming up. I know it's not going to be easy. I know there's going to be some amazing days, but there's also going to be some rough days as well too.

George Angel Ramirez (02:06.678)
And I think if I were to do this when I was younger, I don't think I'd be mentally prepared to be able to do it. But now I think I have enough tools to be successful. And that's why I'm telling myself that I got this. I got this. think life has prepared me. The 27 years living on Earth has prepared me for this exact spot. And obviously there's going to be a lot of learning that I'm going to do.

on the job as well too. So it's gonna be an amazing story, it's gonna be an amazing time, and I'm ready man, I'm just ready for something different, I'm ready for something that for me is exciting. I know a lot of people say it's a rough job, but you know sometimes in life man, you gotta take that, I know it's cheesy to say, but you gotta take that hard right instead of that easy left.

You know, this is my opportunity to do it. And again, I'm super excited to see your journey. think a big part of this podcast for the last few episodes has been about that. You know, it has been about having the resilience, the perseverance, the understanding that there's different perspectives, all those different things in life lessons that we've covered over the last few weeks has been geared to telling people, look,

We got to be confident and believe in ourselves and what you mentioned earlier about being cocky. No, it's never being cocky. You know, it's good to have confidence in oneself. That's how we persevere in our lives. Otherwise, if we're not confident with ourselves, how are we going to be able to go from point A to point B to point C? It's not going to happen. When I got into the sales position again, I struggled with talking to people. And so it's kind of ironic because the sales position is all about talking to people. And had I just told myself and stuck to that mentality of, I get nervous in crowds. I get nervous in conversation.

I don't know what to say. Then I'm never going to be a good salesman. And not only that, I'm to lose out on a lot of other future opportunities that may require those skills. And when I proved to myself that I was good at that, you know, that, and again, not to be cocky because of course there's going to be my off days, but that I proved that to myself that I was pretty good at it. Then I said, well, it was worth it. Even though that first couple of weeks, I was kind of doubtful. I was wondering what direction I was going to go. You know, I stuck to it and

George Angel Ramirez (04:26.52)
four months down the road, feel pretty confident. I walk in, I sit down and I do my job and I feel pretty good about that. But it really does take that confidence in yourself and that belief in yourself. That's half the battle. You conquer that, you'll conquer the job. Or even if, even if you're nervous about it, you know, just that confidence of being, look, I can overcome whatever it is that's thrown my way. of the biggest things, I don't know exactly where I read it. It was in some book.

I think it was in the book, Course of Love, and it's made a huge impact in my life because it's very true. And this is something I take almost every day. It's something I tell myself almost every day. And it's, you can kill the body, but you can't kill my soul. And that's absolutely true. You can do whatever it is that you want to me. Hell, I can even die. But you know what? At the end of the day, I'm still gonna be okay.

And obviously, that's drastic, right? You can kill the body. Yeah, it's catastrophic. Exactly. But it's true. If you really look at it, despite of whatever circumstance you might be in, if you have that kind soul inside of you, guess what? People can hate you. People can say whatever they want about you. People can doubt you. But at the end of the day, you know why you're here on Earth. And I know that sounds very deep, but it's true.

And if you take that into every circumstance, you know, I go into work and, you know, like I was telling you earlier, when on the car ride, I've gotten to a point now in my job, I know I've complained about it and sometimes I really don't enjoy my job, but I've gotten to a point now where everything is just clicking. I can go in and not really have to ask questions and I can do my job more efficiently than when I first started. And, you know, it was rough.

It was the beginning was really rough because I'm like, what did I get myself into? I was so used to working at Whole Foods and so used to that specific type of pace that I worked at where now I'm thrown at a pace where it's very, very fast. And if you don't keep up, you're going to mess things up for other people. And that can be, you know, now you're, you're at a point where you add more work to other people, right? In any job, you don't want to do that. You don't want to add more work to other people. But now it's like, okay, now I'm an asset to this place. This is something.

George Angel Ramirez (06:47.96)
I'm actually doing pretty good now. Yeah, you know, I do look forward to going into work sometimes because I told myself through that resilience, through telling myself, hey, you got this. This is hard right now, but guess what? Life is never gonna be easy. And if you take what you learn from here, not the specifics of the job, but what you've overcame through that job.

Like you, you you said that you weren't good at talking to people and then look at yourself now. Look at all the things that you've overcome at your job. Because you put yourself in that situation. You could have had it easy and still been working at Whole Foods. yeah, definitely. And still working at Home Depot. But you put yourself in a situation, you told yourself, you know what, I'm gonna step out of my boundaries, whatever it might be. I don't know exactly what's gonna happen. Hell, I can fail at this.

But I'm not going to go into it saying that I'm going to fail at this. Because if you do, you're already setting yourself up for failure. Instead, you put yourself in a situation where you're succeeding. You're doing well. Not only are you doing well, you're doing extremely well. Why? Because you're not doing it to scam other people. You're not doing it to get something out of it. Of course, you're getting paid. That's your job. But you're doing it because you're helping people and look at all the benefits that come from that. Exactly.

You know, that's the same thing with me going into the firefighter. It's like, yeah, the pay is gonna be pretty nice. But I'm not going into the pay. If I didn't have to worry about money, I would still do it. But knowing that I'm able to make a difference and being put in a situation where other people have that same mindset, where it's like, yeah, the job might be rough. But at the end of the day, we're here to help whoever it is that needs it.

And that's the ultimate blessing in life, man. When you get paid to do something that you really enjoy and you get to help out other people, what more can you ask for? I know not everybody has that mindset, but you and me, and there's a lot of other people that have that, that say, hey, my job actually, I can help you. But then, I go into work too, and not that I'm helping the specific customer like I did at Whole Foods, but I might talk to a coworker. They might be down.

George Angel Ramirez (09:11.554)
They might, you know, something might be going on in their life. And I said, you know what? Okay, I'll listen. I'll try to help them. Whoever it is, however I can. And it's been, it's been, it's been, I've been happy. I've been happy. That's very profound. And in the same way as me, you know, Whole Foods is great. It was again, a good experience to have, but eventually I realized I got to grow and get out of the comfort zone. I got to figure my life out because my life is beyond this.

you know, I kind of had a different calling. said, I want to help people, but not necessarily in this customer service basis, cause there's only so much I can do. I'm doing is just passing food to somebody. You know, at the end of the day, I want to be able to actually do a good impact for them and benefit them in some way. And so when this insurance job kind of was offered to me in a sense, I went and took it. And of course, I'll be honest, those first two weeks I was at the job, I was doubting it strongly.

I was wondering if I made the right choice. If I lost the stable jobs I had with Home Depot and Whole Foods and gave it all up for something that may not work for me. But it's really comes down to your mindset and perspective. If you tell yourself that then of course that's your attitude that's going to be towards it. You're not going to go anywhere. But I said, okay, so why did I go with this job? What was the reason that I changed for this? Did I do it because I wanted money? Did I do it because I was asking myself those questions? And I came to the conclusion that it was to help.

because that's always been my mission. From the moment that I was able to, you know, kind of put things together for myself, I said, I want to help people make a difference. And that's what drove me to then tell myself, so if I want to make a difference, then I got to be okay with being uncomfortable sometimes. I got to be okay with sometimes even if I'm nervous to finish my sentences when I'm talking to somebody. Let's say in the middle of a call, I forget what I was talking about and I'm just sitting there for a second with dead air and I'm like, what do I do?

remind myself that I'm there to help that person, that it's going to be fine. It's just a conversation. And once I handled things that way, progressively, I started to see the difference. I started to notice that I was able to talk to people without stuttering, without worrying, without tripping over my words, because I knew what I was doing. I knew that I was offering to them was something I was confident in, that I was believed in, and that I knew for a fact was going to benefit them in some way. And when you move in those ways, not only in jobs, but as a person,

George Angel Ramirez (11:34.872)
People see that people perceive that and people trust you. And that's what I want people to embed themselves in that sense of do something you're confident in that you believe in that you know that that's going to be your calling. Because when you move that way, you're making your life better, but you're also making other people's life better too. I know that a lot of us are just very used to kind of staying in those comfort zones because it's just easier that way. But like you said perfectly, life isn't about being easy. It's about making a difference together.

Looking at the bigger picture. So yeah, no, you're absolutely right, man That is something we always talk about and it's nice to kind of embed it into people because Sometimes we need to hear it three four or five six different times, you

I look at my life.

And I see all the things that I wanted to be. And to be honest with you, never once have I really thought about being a firefighter. And then it took all those failures, and I don't even call them failures because I learned so much along the way. So all those lessons that I've learned in life got me to a point where I was like, wait, this is something that I need to do. This is something that I've always aligned myself.

And it's been right in front of me the whole time.

George Angel Ramirez (13:05.314)
And I look at it now, it's like, all right, it's been right in front of me. I've never saw it. Now it's my chance, now it's my opportunity. And I'm glad it's now than before, because I didn't have those lessons. didn't have what I've learned throughout the years. And it's like, it's the perfect time. That's really what it is. It's all about perfect time. A lot of the times we get so upset about

why isn't this going on in my life? you know, I don't understand and you know, the finances might be going on, you know, there might not be as great and you know, my partner cheated on me or this or that or whatever it might be. And then we forget to realize that all those lessons are there for a reason. if we, we might not understand it, that specific moment, but we'll understand down the road. And that's something I'm starting to understand now in life is

Those lessons were there for specific reasons. Those people that have forged the path for me, whatever lessons they may be. I'm grateful for that. I really am because now I can say, hey, this is what I've been through and I can share that to other people. And that's what we talk about on the podcast most of the time is those lessons that we've learned because sometimes it's better to learn those lessons from other people. Sometimes it's better to learn those lessons just to throw

through personal experience. it's there for other people, whether they want to listen to it not. Maybe they're going through it. Maybe then people might understand what they're going through. And then they listen to an episode and they say, this person gets it. This person understands what I'm going through. Like the last episode that we did, I'm sure not everybody's going to relate to that episode, that topic that we talked about. But you know what? There's a good amount of people that can relate to it. Exactly. And maybe they don't realize it yet.

And then it hits and it's like, shit, I do have a problem. That's wonderful. That's very profound. You know, I agree in that sense because a lot of times the message for some people, might go, you know, I already know this or that doesn't apply to me, but a good majority of people, the message does apply to, and then they think to themselves, okay, he just mentioned something that sticks out to me. What do I got to do in my life to fix it? And we're helping people take that direction, that first step.

George Angel Ramirez (15:29.708)
whether they recognize it or not at the time. The great thing about this episode is it's always going to be available there for anybody. No matter what timing it is, they'll be able to listen back to it and be able to kind of relate to it in their own way. So that's one thing I'm very excited about. But another thing, like you mentioned about life, you know, it's all about lessons. I think life kind of an analogy. I think of it like a rock and in that rock, you're polishing it with every lesson, every experience, everything you go through.

You're just polishing one bit by one bit. And under that rock, there's a beautiful gem that's there waiting to be discovered. After you've uncovered all these lessons and gone through all the difficulties of life, resilience stays there and you get this precious gem that under all that pressure, it existed this whole time. You just had to polish it and find it. And thinking that way has kind of helped me understand life because again, we live in a life that a lot of people think of instant gratification. Even I was a

I'd say a person who dealt with that issue for the longest time. wanted to get instantaneous results, just like that instant ramen you throw in the microwave, you wanted to come out ready to eat. And I didn't think of all these seasonings and ingredients and all the special things that go into life. I thought about what's easy, what's quick, but that's where we have to take a step back and understand that life is gradual and the results that we get from life are going to take some time, some

and maybe a month, two months, three months go by and you're still not seeing it, but you're working towards it. The more you hold onto that resilience and the more willingness you have to be able to roll with the punches of life, you will find what your calling is. You will find that opportunity. You will meet the right people. You'll make the right choices. And before you know it, you'll be flourishing and doing great. And you won't have to be looking at, like I was, social media trying to see what other people are up to and why am I not as wealthy as this other individual?

Why don't I have all these things? But that's not life. know, life is about being enjoyed in your own view, in your own perspective and in your own experiences. And that's what we're trying to teach here, you know, is that it is not about grandeur and all these amazing things that you possibly could get with wealth. It's about succeeding in your own way and finding that through the difficulties, of course, because that's inevitable. The struggles are inevitable. being able to see that all of our lives,

George Angel Ramirez (17:55.822)
They're going to amount to something amazing. That's really the perspective I try to always tell people. Yeah, no. that's one of the most beautiful ways that you can put it as well, too, is when you start viewing life as beautiful despite of the things around you, despite of the circumstances that you're going through and seeing the beauty because there's beauty everywhere. In a war zone here in the Sonoran Desert, it looks like one

color, essentially, just brown. But then you start paying attention, because we all have this fog in our eyes. You sometimes I wake up with that fog in my eyes, sometimes where I just kind of pay attention to what's going on in my life and not really seeing what's going on in other people's life, or not really seeing the beauty and the things that is out there. But then you start to zone in, pay attention to what's

being great.

Then you start seeing the beauty in You start to see the laughter in a child, the laughter in another person. Or someone might, you know, at work sometimes we joke around.

And sometimes I'm doing the most mundane tasks that you can think of. And all of a sudden this thought pops into my head of something silly I said to like a coworker of mine. I start laughing.

George Angel Ramirez (19:25.868)
And you start to realize like in those mundane moments of life.

George Angel Ramirez (19:32.942)
beauty will come. It starts to come. but ultimately it's up to you. You can pay attention to that mundane task you may be doing or that mundane environment you might be in. But then you start to clear up that fog in your eyes. And how do you do that? It's really by your mindset. I think that's really how you start to clear up that fog that, that, that so many of us have had and still have is you start being grateful for things.

and you just start trying to be happy. I know it's not easy. It's not an easy thing to just be happy, right? Like I said, sometimes the finances aren't there. Sometimes, you know, your kid might be an asshole or sometimes your wife or your husband might be an asshole or your father-in-law or, you know, whatever it might be, you know, or your car isn't working or, you know, whatever else, Yeah, you hit your toe the wrong way you're like, yeah. You know, like, I can name every little thing.

And I'm sure we can all relate to whatever it might be. But, you don't let that affect you. You say, you know what? Okay, this is happening. But you know what? Let me just start with the basic. I'm breathing. Shit, I might have some, you know, disease or whatnot. But you know what? I'm alive. Let's start with that. I'm alive. Yeah. The birds are chirping around me. You know what? My car might not be the nicest car. But you know what? It's running.

I can get here to work. You know what? I have food on in my fridge. Those little small things that we just take for granted. Being thankful for those things. Being thankful for a good friend like you. You know, I'm thankful I have a friend like you. And I'm thankful that I have an amazing mother and I have an amazing amount of friends that I do now.

George Angel Ramirez (21:27.894)
And you're just thankful for those small things. Next thing you know, you start being thankful for other things. You start being thankful for your job. You start being thankful for, like I said, the friends around you. know, just even being able to walk. All these simple things. And next thing you know, you start seeing the beauty in life. You do. That's what, and I shit you not, man. That's what's been happening. Does it happen all the time with me? No, because sometimes I wake up late and I don't have time to be thankful in the morning and, you know, I get in this rut.

But then I slow myself down and I said, you know what, let me be thankful for the small things that are happening in my life. that's when I start to see the beauty in life. You know, that's how that fog has been able to clear up. But guess what? That's something you need to do each and every day. And sometimes, like I said, for me, I don't do it all the time. Sometimes, like I said, I wake up late and I'm in this rush to go to work and then I start getting, and I notice I start getting negative.

and have to manually put myself out of that mindset. And that's how you start. And then who knows what happens from there on then. Everybody's path is different. When you become more thankful and you have that gratitude just for living life, your life does start to change. Like I said, the most important thing that you will see is the beauty in the small things in life. It's precious. That's why I tell people to be fulfilled.

A lot of people have asked me, why do you use this word fulfillment? That's because I think that's the key of life. Because there's a lot of things that we'll find in life that we're unhappy about. We're unhappy that our shoe got untied. We're unhappy about just the littlest of minuscule things. Whatever it can be. You know, like you just gave a lot of analogies. But you gotta be fulfilled. No matter how difficult of an experience you're going through in life, no matter what's being dealt to you.

having fulfillment over the things that you know, you find exciting is going to change your mindset because you're right. Mindset has a lot to do with what goes on. No worries. And that's what's going to really dictate what you do in a given situation. You know, a lot of times, I don't know if in school you heard this, the growth mindset versus that fixed mindset. It was, they were given that analogies a lot of times, especially when I was in middle and high school.

George Angel Ramirez (23:47.778)
where the growth mindset, you open yourself up to learning different experiences. You're more open to being able to see different views, different perspectives, all those different things that allow you to then grow as a person. Instead of telling yourself, no, I'm stuck in my ways. This is how it's going to be. You tell yourself, no, I'm willing to learn. I'm flexible. Well, with that kind of closed mindset, that fixed mindset as they call it, you're kind of stuck in that. If this is the only way I see it, that's the only way I'm to be able to see it.

And don't get me wrong. Unfortunately, there's a lot of people that have that mindset. A lot of people that are very stuck in their way, you know, and that's, we just got to be okay with that. Cause again, everybody is unique and everybody has their own way of looking at the world. But I think we have to have a degree of openness if we're going to see a lot of success, you know, I'm talking more on a bigger picture. So, you know, but even in ourselves, we have to be willing to look past the things that may upset us. You know, maybe there's a situation we're not too happy.

but we kind of open ourselves up. We learn something new. We learn a different perspective and then life just becomes better that way. And it all falls back to that fulfillment. If we're just grateful, like you said, of just being able to breathe and being able to enjoy at least the small things that we don't notice on a daily basis, that's fulfillment. That's, we're going to have a lot of gratitude for that as opposed to looking for happiness around everything. Because of course there's going to be days you're not going to be happy. I've learned that from personal experience.

No, you're right, man. Happiness.

It's not an easy thing to describe. What makes me happy might not make you

George Angel Ramirez (25:30.744)
but there's a lot of emotions that come out of it. I think part of it too is that gratefulness. And when I'm happy, that's why I started going back to church. And it's not so much because of the, you know, what they teach and the, how would I say, not the propaganda, but I don't know how to describe it, but I remember when I was the happiest I was in my life.

and I was going to church. I was also going to therapy as well too. But therapy, you know, eventually comes to an end.

And I'm lucky where I still have a good relationship with my therapist. We don't talk all the time, but in terms of actual traditional therapy, that comes to an end. Eventually you come to a point where you have the tools you needed to face life, whether it might be panic attacks, anxiety, depression. I'm lucky now where those things don't affect my life like they used to.

every once in a while I of get a panic attack but I'm kind of going on this rant but I told myself I was like you know what I remember going to church you know I would just kind of sit down and listen and then I would just leave and I was happy with that because I remember I would start getting involved with the church and I remember I'm like it's like for me the way I look at it is like I look at photography I'm a great photographer I've been told that I'm great

to point where they're like people like you should start getting paid for your work professionally. And I've tried it and I hate it. I hate doing photography as a job. But when I treat it as a hobby, I enjoy it so much more. And that's the same way that I view church or religion in general. The message are beautiful, especially if you find the right type of church where the message that they give is

George Angel Ramirez (27:33.454)
not so much about the church itself or, or, you know, I don't even know how to explain it, but when you go and you listen to the messages, whether they're right or wrong, whatever they might be, when you go there and you can take something out of the church, like when I went last week, the lady was talking about the pastor, she was talking about the Sonoran Desert and seeing the beauty.

Like, you know what I was talking about, taking that fog away from your eyes and seeing the beauty and the small things. That's something you can apply to life. And also when you can, when a church promotes that individual growth with you and this creator that's out there, God, whatever you want to call it, that's very important.

You don't have to believe in God or you don't have to believe in this creator or whatever it might be. For me, it's important because I've noticed when I try to strive to be spiritually, when I try to grow spiritually, I notice that my life is better for me. It might not be better for other people or who knows, but I notice that life is better. I'm happier. I'm seeking this connection that is ancient.

that we all have this opportunity to have.

George Angel Ramirez (29:01.926)
And I'm happy because I think we all have that connection. We all have that connection to the divine. And it's not that stereotypical way of like how, like let's just say how the Catholic church perceives there to be a God or how a lot of these mainstream religions perceive how there to be a God. It's an opportunity for each and every one of us. And it's up to you.

grow that. It's like a muscle. You want your biceps to grow, you want your legs or your back to grow. Well guess what? You have to do certain exercises to do that. But then you start to realize, there are specific exercises that work better. There are some that are outdated. Which one are you going to go with?

George Angel Ramirez (29:56.248)
That's a great perspective. know, and when I used to go to church, I went as a kid, you early on. And of course I didn't have many memories. In fact, I wasn't a fan because I was just sitting there doing, listening. was like, I just want to be out of here. Yeah. Because as a kid, for me, you know, I didn't feel very connected. And my parents eventually stopped going to church. And there was this period of time that, you know, I didn't go to any church. just kind of.

went about, I had a feeling that there was a divine spirit out there. So was, I would say agnostic, you know, where I, I felt that there was a greater power, but I didn't quite know. couldn't quite put my finger on it. And I go to U of A and I meet this group, great group. And they asked me that one question that, know, it's very difficult to answer. Even at that time, I was like, what are you, do you think you're going to go to heaven? And I of course said yes, because I said, well, I've been a good person.

I've treated people with respect, you know, and I think that the Lord above would see that and go right to heaven with you. But of course he stopped me in the middle of my answer and he goes, that's not the way to go to heaven. And I was confused. it the million dollar question? Yeah. Obviously he give me a million dollars, so he kind of scammed me. Just kidding. I'm kidding. Anyway, he tells me, you got to start with repentance. Now I'm not here to preach about religion and all that stuff, but

I said, well, what's that? What's this repentance you're talking about? And he goes, well, you have to ask for forgiveness. You have to give away the old Mario to get the new Mario. And again, I kind of was like, what are you talking about? And that's when it clicked for me. Maybe I should give this a shot. Maybe I should go to this church. Just see it. Just put my feet in the water and figure this out.

And ended up going there for over two years. I was very, it was a great church and they're great people, but little by little, I was realizing I wasn't connecting. I loved when I would arrive at 10 and they would be, you know, be doing their singing, their songs and people would just be, you know, chanting. And then it'd be the sermon. And for an hour, you know, they'd be talking about a certain part of the Bible, talking about life, talking about these things. And I connected and I learned a lot from every lesson. Don't get me wrong, but.

George Angel Ramirez (32:20.086)
I just wasn't finding myself. wasn't finding my fit. So the next thing I was trying to do is fellowship, which is a big thing at church, you know, and I tried that and it worked. But again, I wasn't feeling as connected. You felt lonely. I did. I felt kind of in that situation where there's a lot of people, but you still at the end of the day walk away feeling lonely. And no matter how many gatherings I would go to, cause I went out of my way, I was like, I need to figure out what the problem is. Something is not working.

No matter how many times I go to all the different events, whether I go to the Sun Saturday, you know, speaking in tongues or all these different events they would host, I was just not feeling like a part of the crowd. At the end of the day, I felt like an outsider. Even though I was a full-fledged member, even though I was coming along and doing these things, it just wasn't clicking for me. And then it came to the point where they confronted me and they go, Mario.

You got to start tithing. You got to start doing this. You got to start being, you know, and it was an eyeopening moment for me. And I said, I just don't feel like this is the right community for me for whatever reason, you know, and I still, I'm still trying to find out the answer to that. I'm trying to understand why I just said, okay, I don't think this is for me. Trying to figure that answer out, but I feel like part of it had to do with just

the nature of the church. Again, wonderful people, great people, but I just wasn't able to connect with them on the spiritual level. And so I had to say my goodbyes and it was hard because I got to know these people. I got really close with them, you know, and the sad part was I recognized there wasn't much of a friendship outside the church and they made that very clear to me. And so once I left, you know, I haven't had any communication with them and almost

come three years now. And I'm very excited about going to this church. Yeah. Yeah. I'm very excited about giving that another go. I do feel like I want to be able to connect with the spirit in that level. And I do kind of lament that I wasn't able to do that that first time or that second time, you know, and, I do hope that as they say the third, charm and I that sincerely. Yeah, man, you know, and that's the beautiful thing too. Well, okay. So first of all,

George Angel Ramirez (34:49.678)
I want to talk about that experience that you had because I've had that same exact experience with you. I grew up in the church. I grew up in a Pentecostal church. It's very, very loud and it's very, very in your face. Wonderful people put the same things, same exact feelings that you had, I had. I tried being involved in the church and I always felt lonely.

Same thing like you said, you have this room full of people, but still you still feel ostracized, you still feel lonely. That's been pretty much ever since. I remember I used to go to this church, same thing, probably same amount of time that you did. We probably went at the same time in terms of like, I went for about two years at that church. And it was nice because it was a good group of people.

And they cared. But my thing is...

George Angel Ramirez (35:55.148)
I don't consider myself Christian and I want to talk about the way I view God before we get into this topic because I think it's very important. You know, I don't view myself as a Christian. I don't view myself as anything. I don't consider myself agnostic or whatever it might be. What I consider myself is a human being. That's what I consider myself and my belief system.

If anything you can call me a spiritual person. know nowadays that carries Somewhat of a negative Yeah Conentation nowadays because people are like, you know, you're I remember I was talking to one of my co-workers who's he's a Christian. He's very big Stereotypical Christian and I'm not here to judge him, but I was telling him my views and he's like, you're just one of those woke spiritual people and I was like

You know what? He's gonna have his belief system. I can't blame him for the way he sees me because when I considered myself a Christian, would view, I would probably say the same thing about if I met a person how I used to view God. So I said, that's okay. And I told him, look, I have my view, you have your view. That's completely fine. We're not gonna agree on everything and that's fine. So.

The way I view God is that God is love. But we're not going to fully understand what love is, but we're not going to fully understand what God is either. God is this, in some terms, a mystery. It's not a person. It's not this father that's up there like Zeus that is judging you because of certain sins that you've committed. This thing, this creator, this...

thing that probably has always existed loves you and me and the animals and everything around us

George Angel Ramirez (38:02.058)
Equally despite of what you have done despite of what I have done. I'm sure there's people they're like, well What about people that have committed some atrocious crimes? Well in my opinion that is more because of the human ego this God or creator Has let us to have free will So you can do whatever you want. I can do whatever I want this person that has committed this atrocious crimes They can do whatever they want. But guess what?

That person that has committed those atrocious crimes is still loved just how you and me are loved And we're not gonna fully understand Why that is but guess what that's okay sometimes in life we have to say you know what things are out of my control Yeah, and that's okay. Just as little God Loves you and me guess what I can do the same So one of my things is I don't I believe

We all go to heaven and I don't think it's a stereotypical heaven how the Bible describes it where the streets are paved in gold because let's just say in the spiritual realm, doesn't have any significance. It doesn't mean anything. It doesn't have that value that it has here on earth. It's yeah, why would it have that? It makes no sense. Why would we as a spiritual being at that point care about what gold is or all these things?

I don't, you know, it just doesn't make any sense to me. I agree. But I think we all gotta go to heaven. But there's circumstances. And I don't think it's as hell. I don't think there's a hell. I don't think that's like how Dante's Inferno explains hell. I don't think there's Satan either. I don't think there's this demon that's trying to, you know, that, you know, is fighting good and evil. No, I think the human ego is what we describe the devil.

You just when you when the Bible describes devil back then they Talked in parables They talked in a different way than we can explain things now. We're more scientific. We're back then it was more of a They had more time for conversations, you know, that's more that's how people you know, they just interact Their stories were a lot longer and they were more elaborated than how that we are now right now we get to the point back then

George Angel Ramirez (40:27.19)
A 30-40 minute conversation was probably something you look forward to every day. So the way they describe the devil and with the horns and everything, it kind of resembles the human ego. How dark our personal ego can be. I'm going to say that I think that the human ego is personified in that form, that there's this depiction.

Because a lot of us as people, kind of try to personify certain things where we can't explain, but we want to give it a face because that's easier to explain. It's easy. know, kind of like we have these statues, these different things that people at the time would do because being able to give something a face gave it meaning. It gave it a definition. It gave it a skin to be encapsulated in and for people to understand. And that's one of the things I do miss from

storytelling because I just think it's fundamentally amazing. Whenever I sit there and I read a book, whenever I read, you know, the past, I look forward to it because I'm able to see a story read, understand it. And your personal view of everything is very interesting. want to say that I agree in a lot of perspectives. You know, I agree in the fact that I don't think there is a hell, even though that's talked about a lot, you know, I don't think, and I agree with you on the having aspect as well because

Heaven's relative. I'm going to say that everybody's view of what they want heaven to look like when they pass on is going to be very different. For some people, utopia is maybe a place full of gold. Maybe that's how they see it. Maybe that's how they hope to see it. Maybe material still matters to them in some way. For me personally, I don't care about material. You know, once I pass on, what good is it for me to have the newest, latest, greatest phone? What good is it going to have all these things if I'm already gone and enjoying a peaceful experience?

whatever that is. And I agree with you. think heaven and I can't exactly define it because of course I I think it's undefined. It's kind of like love, you know, everybody is going to have their own perspective on how heaven is heaven. For some people, heaven is going to be a hell for somebody else. Let's be honest. But I think what I'm really coming to say with this is it's wonderful that we all have our different perspectives. And when it comes to religion, I agree with you. I'm not very much a Christian.

George Angel Ramirez (42:43.886)
In fact, for a good long while, while I was going through my time from leaving that church till now, I was thinking of being Buddhist. And the reason I was thinking about being Buddhist was because I liked the concept of trying to achieve Narvana, trying to find peace in yourself, the meditation that I really kind of thought to myself, maybe that's where I belong. Maybe that's where I should be. And in fact, I had a friend at Home Depot where he traveled a lot to Tibet.

He's an older gentleman, but I kind of got a lot of inspiration from him. I said, maybe I should pursue this. But then I said, no, I don't think that's quite it. And I'm glad that you told me about going to this church because I really do look forward to it and want to see, you know, where I fit in. And I'm excited about that. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, like I said, church, I take a lot of inspiration because I

I believe that in every major religion, every religion, not just major, in every religion there's some sort of truth. One of the things that I do believe in the Christian church is I do believe Jesus Christ was the Son of God. But that doesn't make him any special than you or me. I think what Jesus Christ's role was here on earth was to bridge us with the divine.

understanding that.

You know, you look at divine and it seems almost way far off to the point where it's like I can't even relate with God or whatever it might be. But here is a person saying,

George Angel Ramirez (44:34.67)
We're all loved. We all have access to this greater thing, God, whatever it might be. But it's up to you. It's completely up to you whether you wanna bridge that gap, align yourself with what's out there. And it's not exactly what we think it is. I don't think that we need to repent for our sins because

realistically we're already I don't think Jesus was here to die for our sins I think that's what it was. you'll hear that a lot. and it's that's you hear that so much and it's it's really nice when you go into a church and you hear more about hey how do you grow

a person. How do you grow spiritually? Not a lot of places do that because when you start growing spiritually you start to ask questions about the foundation that a lot of these churches have put into place. Let me ask you a question. Yeah. Have you ever heard of the story of the prodigal son in the Bible?

I'm sure I have, you know, nothing. I, a lot of the things from the Bible, I don't even remember. Yeah. And no fairness. I'm kind of the same way. There's certain stories that have always stuck out to me. And that's one of them. Cause that's how I feel like God would treat us. You know, the prodigal son, he got his inheritance early from his father left it, party did every, all these crazy things. yeah. Despite that, when he comes back,

His father welcomes him with open arms, put a ring on him, gives the finest robes. And I feel like in many ways that's how God is. Irrespective of the things you do, you may be, again, the most atrocious criminal. But at the end of the day, when all is said and done, I think that that's the love that he has for you regardless. And he will just be happy that his son is back in his arms. And that's the part that I relate to the most because...

George Angel Ramirez (46:36.844)
That's what I feel that the Lord was trying to really convey to us, is that He will love us no matter what, His love is infinite. And another thing that I find very unique among the three Abrahamic religions, Islam, Judaism, and Christianity, they all recognize Jesus in some way. The Jews obviously don't think He's the Messiah. The Christians believe He's the Son of God. The Muslims believe He's in a very, very important esteemed prophet that's very respectable. They all have a different view on Him.

We can all agree he existed. Yeah. And that's one of the things that I find very phenomenal. And I think like you're right. Jesus Christ was sent by God to be a messenger, you know, and even though many will say he died for our sins, he bore the weight of the human ego and succumbed to it for us. I think that's not necessarily what the purpose of that was. I think so too. Yeah, I think he is a representation of how we should live life, how we should carry that love.

that divine love. There's nothing special that you have to do to carry that divine love. All you have to do is just be willing to carry that divine love. And it doesn't, you don't have to be an extraordinary person. You just have to be a person. You just have to be a human being, which we all are. You don't have to do anything special. And I feel very excited that I got the privilege of reading the Quran, which is the holy text of Islam. You know, one day I said, you know what?

read the Bible, I'm going to read the Quran. I'm going to see a different perspective. And it's a great book, you know, all respect. have lots of respect for Muslim youths in general and being able to read that and get a different view and see how they also have a lot of care, a lot of love in that book embedded. was like, I have a lot of respect. There's a lot of values that are shared, you know, between the two. I still haven't been able to read the Jewish. I think it's the Torah. I don't remember the-

I haven't been able to read that, know, but it was great getting a different perspective to seeing that. You start to see some differences or I'm sorry, some similarities and you do all major religions. So that's why I'm like, there's some sort of truth to every single one of them. And I think when we read them.

George Angel Ramirez (48:57.038)
The book, of course, of talks about the self, the big self and the little self. And it talks about how the little self is this representation of who we think we are, the human ego, not in the way Freud describes it, but in that way. And then also talks about the big self, this part of you that has never left God. And when you start listening to that little, or the big self, like I was saying earlier, when you read religious texts,

can kind of you know the self tells you or that gut feeling says hey that might be wrong or hey it's crazy how that comes about right and just with everything yeah you have this little thing like in your gut that tells you no yes and you know it's like very you're kind of like huh you're like stay away from that but then you reach something else or you're in a specific circumstance and you're like wait I need to gravitate more to that and that's the same thing

You either pay attention to it or you don't. But then you start realizing when you pay attention to that gut feeling, you start realizing, this is the path that I'm supposed to be going in life.

And I'm trying to do that more and more and more. doesn't happen all the time, but I'm starting to do it more and more and more. And I'm like, okay, this makes sense. I need to start listening to this a lot more. Yeah. Yeah. That's the exciting part is that, know, that's what we got to do. And we definitely got to talk about the different perspectives of the ego and all these that that'll be definitely a different topic. Yeah. Compared Freud's version of the aid and all these different subcategories. Yeah. My, like I said in this book, of course of love, man, it really,

has changed my perspective on a lot of things, especially religion. Just because, like I said, I grew up Christian.

George Angel Ramirez (50:53.518)
And with that comes a lot. My dad is very Christian. I have a lot of friends that are still Christian. Look, I'm not judging anybody whether it's right or wrong. But I'm starting to see that there's a lot of fear based in Christianity. And it should not be that way. We shouldn't fear this creator. We shouldn't fear God. I don't think that was ever the intention. I think that was man trying to control man.

trying to say, if you don't follow these specific rules, you'll be condemned to this. Exactly. You'll be condemned for eternity. And it's like, no, life is meant to be enjoyed. Life is meant to make mistakes.

And there's probably people like you and me who, because Catholicism was the biggest version of Christianity for the longest time. But then you had Martin Luther who goes, no, your way of using purgatory as, you know, a money tactic. That's not the way I see religion. And he makes his own movement. Then, you know, the Church of England goes about its own movement and all these different perspectives start rising rapidly. Why? Because

At the end of the day, you're right. I don't think God wants us to fear him. That's not the point of our existence. The point is to have love, to be able to confide in him, to be able to tell him, you know, I need your help or pray to him with confidence, not a fear, because if that's the case, then, you know, are we always going to fear him for all eternity? Exactly. That's not the ever an envision of heaven whatsoever. That shouldn't be the way it is. You know, I think there's

There's a feeling of mutual love instead of care. I even think that God doesn't even want to be praised. Like how we do like, you know, you go and you look.

George Angel Ramirez (52:52.866)
My old church used to this all the time. used to make this, you know, we would go out to eat, let's just say like an Applebee's and we would kind of stand up and pray and kind of talk loudly in prayer. And I would always feel uncomfortable. And I'm like, why are we doing this? Like what, to show other people that we're godly? No, like we can sit here and say in our mind like, hey, God, thank you for this food. And you know, that's basically it. We don't have to sit here and make a spectacular about it. Or just as the same thing, we're like go and.

You know, you have all this huge worship team and stuff like that. Like, I don't... God knows what God is. Yeah. doesn't need us as humans to say, hey God, you're this great and majestic and you can do all these things. you know... I feel like a lot of it was human corruption. Yeah. You know, for money and what have you, you know, trying to kind of manipulate people to do things. That yes, it's supposed to be for the Lord above, but really it's for themselves. Exactly.

And I hate to say that. don't like saying that, but it's very sadly true. A lot of churches abuse the fact that they get tax incentives here in the States, especially, you know, and they probably do pocket a good deal of the money that's given in the name of the Lord, which to me is disgraceful because I don't think that's the way the Lord intends things to be given. I think the Lord knows the love you have for him. He knows your heart. He knows who you are.

You don't have to verbally or monetarily tell him you love him because he already knows that whether you love him or not. And like, I agree with you. There's a lot of times where we would go to food gatherings. We'd be praying there for a good three, four minutes, you know, with our hands all stretched out and as great as that is some, you know, and I did at first enjoy it, but then I recognize why are we doing this? Exactly. Well, what's the point in this? What am I trying to insinuate to all these other people who are

having to be listening to this, you know, maybe they don't like that, you know, and maybe they're uncomfortable and I don't like to make people uncomfortable. that, you know, and that's the thing too, is one thing you hear in the church where it's like, well you have to get out of that comfort zone. It's like, look, there's a difference between yes, getting out of your comfort zone and then also putting a spectacular show on for no reason. And that's the thing is that's what a lot of churches

George Angel Ramirez (55:18.934)
are now that's what a lot of christianity is like you look at these mega churches out there for what that's just a spectacular show essentially you you look at some of these places the things that they do and it's like what is this really for this is not for this creator this god that's out there this is for your human ego to show other people look at our worship team or look at our church or look at this or look at that that's really Kenneth Copeland is the biggest example of that

guy with the private jet and all that stuff and how he boasts about it openly and he doesn't want to go in a tube full of demons, which is referring to the people that he's preaching to. And it's so sad that that's who we allow to dictate what the Lord above is saying that we're the message is so twisted by this individual who again is feeding the human ego for themselves. And we're allowing that person to dictate how we have to live our lives. No.

Because the Lord doesn't want us to live that life the way that that individual is telling us to live our life. That's not how we intended it to be. And that's why, you know, I have a great deal of skepticism with a lot of churches because unfortunately a lot of them are that way. A lot of them want you to have a mindset that thinks that whoever the pastor is, that their word is law. But really when you get in a community, like the church you're describing, I think is wonderful. I'm really looking forward to seeing.

first hand. was crazy kind of seeing how the like they were going into pride obviously going into church you're like you know homosexuality is a sin yeah and then seeing a church where it's like shoot you accept everybody and guess what that's what it's supposed to be about yeah accepting everybody despite of their color of their skin despite of their sexual orientation despite of even if they don't believe that's what it's supposed to be about

that's when i found the church and it's funny i found it by accident too i was reading a book that i bought here in tucson the pastor it's about this military chaplain who goes to iraq and he talks about tucson and this church and i'm like shoot i've been trying to find a church you know ever since i've been here and i'm like i found it i finally found it and i get to take my dog tomorrow too which i'm like i've never been at a place like that so

George Angel Ramirez (57:46.05)
Yeah, I'm excited for you to go too, The first experience was really nice. The person I sat next to was kind. The pastor was kind, came, shook my hand.

And I was like, this, this kind of feels like home. So I'm going to continue to go. That's amazing. And I look forward to the same. I look forward to being able to be in a group of like-minded people like that are very open. Like I said, have a very growth mindset perspective because that's what we need. You know, we can't be, you're wrong. You're different. You know, that's never going to allow for society to advance. And I think that that's what we have been talking a lot here on this podcast about is that we have to be open.

We have to be accepting that other people are going to have distinct views on things. And that's fine. Because at the end of the day, that's what makes us unique. That's what makes us people. That's what's going to allow us to grow is having those differences and to hear a church that welcomes that freaking delighted about that. Exactly. Yeah. I think that's what we got for today, man. Let's go take some photos while we still got the sun. Enjoy this rest of the Saturday, man. Seriously. I'm excited. Cool. Well,

well now we're already went by so appreciate you guys love you guys and we'll talk to you later take care